In California, a 41 year old man and his 8 year old son were shot to death when they stumbled upon criminals growing pot on their property.

Yeah, pot doesn’t hurt anyone.

Does telling yourself that make you feel better?

Also, a friend of mine, and probably the biggest pot head I know, was not only the top cross country runner in the state but also ended up going to Yale.

Yes I know people like this too, final year of school you generally need to study and work hard. I bet you friends ‘never needed to study’ attitude was more to blame than the pot.

>In California, a 41 year old man and his 8 year old son were shot to death when they stumbled
>upon criminals growing pot on their property.

If these criminals hadn’t been able to make money in a fairly harmless way up until this stage they probably would have shot someone in a bank robbery to make their money. Criminals find a way to break the law no matter what, you cant blame pot for this.

>Yeah, pot doesn’t hurt anyone.
Correct

>Does telling yourself that make you feel better?
I think it is obvious from the article the poster is living in torment and that the only reason he has made posted this is so that he can ‘feel better’ and that deep down inside he really does share your own narrow minded opinions.

Come back when you have something decent to say

However, I would like to state that this is an EXCELLENTLY written piece, and I enjoyed it immensely. I intend to share this with many! Thanks!

1) Evidence is not the plural of anecdote. Real research shows that Cannabis is much less harmful than alcohol and legal drugs.

2) Perhaps if growing a harmless substance like Cannabis was not illegal there would be no violent psychopaths growing it and thus the Californian father and son might not have been shot. Explanation: People who have high anxiety/stress thresholds find it easier to do dangerous things like break the law. Very often those same people are violent as well. The stricter the laws against something like Cannabis the more prevalent these hardened anxiety-resistent, violent types will be; everyone else is too scared to do it.

So, carry on being a sheep in the flock that believes the government lies.

“Kids do drugs because they realize that adults have lied to them about it. If they are to discover the truth, they have only one course of action: Do drugs.”

I grew up in a town full of pot smoking ex-hippies, so it was always around. At school of course we were taught that drugs were bad - but all of our parents smoked pot. Don’t get me wrong - most of them were very discrete about it; it wasn’t until about the 5th grade that I started noticing that they sometimes acted weird. But when you are a young kid you just accept what is going on around you - because you don’t have anything to judge it against. As you get older and start really noticing the world around you - you begin to build a model of the world and start to judge what is around you based on that model. Rebellion can stem from these expectations (which may or may not be true).

TV and other major media have become a huge influence on these expectations. A good example are ads - they are all about shaping your expectations. The whole purpose of an ad is to get you to want something - in essence it changes how you look at the world by changing your expectations. You are no longer good enough, healthy enough, or beautiful enough unless you buy X, Y, or Z. If you get X, Y, or Z you will be happy.

Rebellion stems from a conflict between what is and what could be. Psychologists call this cognitive dissonance. You want something, but reality is different than what you want. I think this is why most people do drugs - because from about the age of 2 we are bombarded with the message that reality is never here - aka “The Grass is Greener on the Other Side Syndrome”. I know that is why I have done drugs - because at that time I perceived life to be rather mundane in comparison to what I wanted it to be. Drugs cause neurological changes that fill in the gap. They give you that instant gratification that TV and movies only offer.

I was not introduced to pot by someone who was rebelling against being lied to. In fact it was the exact opposite - his mom smoked dope around him so he knew that there was nothing inherently wrong with it. Today he doesn’t smoke at all - so go figure; in fact he is one of the most anti drug people I know. I also think it is more curiosity than being lied to that leads to the initial desire to do drugs. That is why I first tried most drugs (esp. hallucinogens).

So I think your post is on the right track, but maybe not the best track. In a funny side note - one of my favorite high school memories was when the drug dogs showed up and found a joint in a friends car. They pulled him out in the parking lot, and while they searched his car, he was sitting on the hood wearing a DARE t-shirt…One of the only times I wish I had a camera.

I don’t believe the whole gateway-drug thing in general, I do think marijuana is in a different class, and studies have shown it to not be all that bad. I grew up with D.A.R.E., but pot never scared me; but meth & crack do scare me.

I do think there’s better things to do with my time than drugs, but plenty of people are wasting their lives in front of the TV or computer screen, so who am I to say that pot-smoking is a waste of time?

The real reasons kids do drugs is they’re curious & think they’re indestructible. The real reason the government has a “war on drugs” is cuz they don’t get a cut. The real reason parents support the “war on drugs” is because they don’t want to do any parenting themselves; school & the government should be doing that for them.

Furthermore, not all drug users are depressed, depraved, psychopaths, which is what they are portrayed as.

I personally believe that a person who is, for the most part, satisfied with his life and has control over his actions can use drugs in a non-harmful way. It is the same story with alcohol consumption. One can indulge from time to time, but it MUST be done responsibly. Would you let yourself get extremely drunk before an important meeting? Of course not! If you have trouble governing yourself, then you should probably stay away from potentially hazardous substances.

On the other hand, I do believe that some of the “hardcore” drugs are genuinely dangerous. However, I think the perception that marijuana, in particular, is evil is completely ridiculous. I would much rather see people stoned and laughing at something mundane than drunk and fighting with each other over something equally mundane.

Also…
Altered states can be fun, but not being able to control your functionality can lead to disaster. This is why DWI is problematic.
Drugs are only harmless if:

1. The person using the drugs is kept under surveillance or isolation.
2. The person using the drugs does not become addicted.
3. The person using the drugs does not suffer any side-affects from the drugs.
4. No one has been harmed in the production, trafficking, and/or sale of said drugs.

I am not going to debate the legal vs illegal aspect of drugs, but do not tell me that drugs are completely harmless. Convince me that all four criteria have been met and I will gladly agree with you.

Some of my favorites have already appeared in this thread.
-Drugs make people go crazy and ruin their lives. All the people I know who have become drug addicts (a very small percentage of drug users I have met) were already pretty messed up to begin with. I agree that there is no going back once you smoke the dope or eat the shrooms, but then again every experience you have changes who you are and how you view the world. I think that drugs, particularly hallucinogens have been on balance a positive force in my life.

-Drug dealers are bad so drugs must be bad. So, when was the last time your local bartender or 7-11 clerk kicked the crap out of you? The drug game is a product of the drug war which is a product of asshole puritans criminalizing any behavior they deem improper. If drugs were legal, their sale and distribution would not be controlled by insane gangsters but by business men. In fact, many many people currently involved in drug trafficking and production are just that, and yet our government destroys their livelihoods, locks them up and worse.

The failure of prohibition is evidenced by the fact that I, a non-user, could have a bag of meth in my hand with 2 phone calls and 20 minutes in the car. I don’t because I don’t want to, not because its illegal. When are people going to get that through their heads?

I’m sorry to hear about your friend who didn’t graduate. As “Tricks are 4 Kids” said - moderation is key. I agree with you that drugs are bad. Pot and many other drugs - legal and illegal - can be bad. The problem I wish to point out is that the method employed to prevent drug use is having the opposite effect.

As for the father and son that were shot to death. I wouldn’t place the blame on pot. I would place the blame on the person that did the shooting. I would also look at the catalyst that created the situation in the first place: laws which drive irrepressible markets underground.

-JSwan

Take away the guns from the story and what are yuou left with? Nothing. The pot is harmless.
To paraphase a common refrain: “It’s the guns, stupid!”

My dad was a HEAVY drug tester. Man he had tried everything he’d been shooting up heroin, doing LSD, making his own opium. If it was about getting high he knew about it.

He used to tell me of taking LSD and driving at night he said it was totally wild experience.

I spent hours questionning him about every single drug and what they did and how they worked and the upside and downside etc. I found it interesting and informative.

He never said do this one or don’t do this one or nothing like that. He was just factual.

But I understood and I knew what to do - i.e. I could decide if I wanted to take the dive or not. I tried pot, didn’t really like it. It ended there.

My dad’s dead - but he helped me stay out of the mess.

FACTS is what helps not opinions not scare tactics. Check out the link below, it’s just FACTS not the scare stuff.

http://www.drugfreeworld.org/factsaboutdrugs/ecstasy.html

[;-]

I am sick and tired of people in this country telling me what I should or shouldn’t do with myself. Who the hell cares if I go from being a 4.0 student to a failure in 1 year, IT’S MY LIFE TO DO SO WITH AS I CHOOSE! As long as I’m not hurting anyone else in the process why should anything be a crime? And don’t give me any of your, “It supports terrorism and organized crime” bull crap. If it were legal, the only people it would support were legitimate farmers trying to make a honest living.

People in the US are so mixed up by the mass media and propaganda that they don’t know what to think. Sometimes I even believe they don’t want to think. Put a commercial on during American Idol which claims peanuts are the evil new drug and the peanut farmer would be extinct. Look at what happened in the 1980’s with the oats surplus problem. Put it on TV and tell people it’s good for them, no more problem.

Drugs are not illegal because of their effects on people, they’re illegal because of the greed of the rich and ignorance of the mob.

“The decision of the U.S. Congress [1937] was based in part on testimony derived from articles in the newspapers owned by William Randolph Hearst, who was heavily interested in DuPont Inc. Some analysts theorize DuPont wanted to boost declining post-war textile sales, and wished to eliminate hemp fiber as competition. … Furthermore, hemp would have been an easy target due to its intoxicating effect, while no rational justification could have been made for outlawing cotton, wool, or linen.”

Read it here: http://www.legalize.org/history-of-cannabis-prohibition

Science is starting to find that most soft drugs (those which have been used by our ancestors for millennia; marijuana, peyote, mushrooms, sage) are quite safe in moderation. Studies are even showing that ecstasy (MDMA) is quite safe. Most deaths attributed to it are usually from over or under hydration of the body during usage.

>> The real reason parents support the “war on drugs” is because they don’t want to do any
>> parenting themselves; school & the government should be doing that for them.

The most intelligent thing said so far.

the drugs will always be there. they’re never going away. any rehab patient or drug counselor will tell you that the only person who could ever help an addict is themselves. drug addiction is ALWAYS a symptom of deeper issues. for this reason, it is a tragedy that drug abuse is such a taboo topic that people are reluctant to search for and often have difficulty obtaining help. it’s not the government’s job to punish people for taking a more difficult path in life. people with drug problems are not criminals!

Hmmm, I don’t really know about your logic there. Adults also tell me that it’s a bad idea to drop out of school. I’ve seen some kids drop out of school and be very happy. The only way I can discover the truth is to drop out of school…

Why not read the multitude of unbiased published research on the effects of drugs? That seems like a much more effective way to ‘discover the truth’. Be a critical thinker.

My poorly constructed sentence implied the land was the criminal’s land. In fact it was the father’s land. So it was not Trespassing.

Anyway, I read that in an article about how land in our National Parks are being used by pot growers.

@DumSumGuy

“Pointing out extreme circumstances is just as retarded as making vast generalizations.”…”Also, a friend of mine, and probably the biggest pot head I know, was not only the top cross country runner in the state but also ended up going to Yale.”

So, are you saying you are Retarded?

@X and everyone else who wants to legalize drugs:

So, you would be fine with your police officers, pilots, train conductors, day care employees, and doctors smoking pot as long as they weren’t doing it “on the job”?

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#generalize

There are no official tally, but it is thought that each day Mexico six people are killed because of criminals competing for the lucrative smuggling routes into America.

Do you know what is being smuggled from Mexico? Mostly coke and pot.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/11/14/MNGL3MC3I91.DTL

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6113878

So, please, by all means, keep puffing away because “it’s not as bad as cigarettes” and “no one is getting hurt”.

Why not? We’re ok with them downing a couple of pitchers of beer and a bunch of shots as long as they’re not doing it “on the job”.

I think your anecdote about the murders actually illustrates the author’s point quite poignantly: One of the predominant effects of the “War on Drugs” has been to increase the violence and crime surrounding the drug trade. By attacking the supply side of an industry with very strong and inelastic demand, the crusade against drugs has dramatically driven up prices. In doing so, it has made supplying drugs so lucrative that even in the face of extreme risks from law enforcement, many people are willing to engage in the trade.

Unfortunately, this skews the population of dealers towards profit-driven less scrupulous people and raises the stakes of their occupation such that they are very willing to use violence. Similarly, on the demand side, the rising prices of drugs and the inelastic demand lead to the crime we associate with-drug ridden areas: petty theft to finance drug use. Both are direct consequences of a campaign against drugs taken beyond extremes.

The saddest part of the whole affair is that such extremes are not justified. In the name of sheltering our population from the bogey-man of bad trips and ruined lives, we’ve criminalized a large portion of our otherwise law-abiding citizenry while simultaneously increasing violent crime in our communities. This is all totally ignoring the effects of turning many people towards consumption of totally unregulated products which may be adulterated or counterfeit.

As to your high school friend, I wish you would elaborate on the “long story short.” Pot, as with many other distractions, can drive people to “drop out” of life, but I can’t believe that such instances are common. Often, negative life consequences of minor drug use come about not because of any deleterious effects of the substances themselves but rather from the legal and social stigmas associated with them. Perhaps your friend was caught with the drugs and expelled for what would have probably been (though I of course have no knowledge of specifics) a triflingly minor infraction? Perhaps, as “Spaz” rather insensitively suggested, your friend was dealing with other issues and things came to a head concurrent with his drug use? People fall in to bad situations for any number of reasons, and I would be interested to hear what led you to link pot use in particular with your friend’s downward spiral.

But it wasn’t just a good memory or book smarts. Joe was really a genius. Teachers loved discussing and debating subjects with Joe and there was a lot of talk about how he was probably going to go to MIT.

The problem for Joe was that pot made reality more interesting. I mean, I didn’t understand it at the time, but high school must have been very boring for Joe because it took no effort. Pot was not an escape for Joe, it was a doorway into a richer and more interesting world. Unfortunately, Joe chose this doorway daily and the result was he dropped out of school and pretty much lost interest in everything but pot.

I suppose my point is pot has different effects on different people. As such, it should be and is rightfully considered an illegal controlled substance.

But then I went to a technical college. At least 30-50% of these people did pot and other drugs. I knew two specifically that were heavy users. They were idiots; bad short term memory problems, anxious all the time. It was really quite sad. And no, neither of them managed to achieve anything, certainly not jobs in the industry they were training for.

You really have to ask yourself what’s wrong with you, or your life that you need drugs to fill the void. Add alcohol in there, too, aside from wine tasting, etc. My guess is you’re simply not finding your authentic self, or living up to your potential. Something is missing. And for that reason alone, any drug is a bad answer.

Abuse of any substance ruins lives, but that does not guarantee you’ll die because of it.

There are examples on both sides of the case, the problem is, drug education always uses the worst .

Honestly what’s wrong with reality being more interesting? It seems to me to be of far greater value to be interested in reality - what is REAL - than in some textbook or institution’s perceptions of what is important.

You are right though, pot does have different effects - negative and positive - on different people. But it is also true that negatives and positives can be found in anything in life if you look hard enough. I do not agree however that it is considered an illegal controlled substance, there are far better things tax payers money could be spent on than busting some kid for selling a bit of pot.

I don’t want to use any drugs, personally. I mean, the only one I feel comfortable using is caffeine and even that I don’t like having to use because it just means I’m not getting enough sleep.

Since I started working, there’s a social expectation that I drink, at least somewhat. That I didn’t drink while I was in high school or college ended up cutting me off from a lot of socialization because I always felt uncomfortable around other people imbibing.

It’s not that I have any moral inhibition towards it, I just don’t like the way I feel even when slightly inebriated.

Expectations towards your behavior are the real problem of drugs, legal or otherwise. I bet if there weren’t an impetus for people to share their drugs in social settings, people would be less concerned with them in general.

If these drugs are so harmless….
Why would someone need a “trip-sitter”?

You don’t need a sitter for pot.

“My best friend in high school, Joe, was a 4.0 student who never needed to study. He started using pot in his senior year. Long story short- Joe did not graduate from high school.

In California, a 41 year old man and his 8 year old son were shot to death when they stumbled upon criminals growing pot on their property.

Yeah, pot doesn’t hurt anyone.

Does telling yourself that make you feel better?”

Your best friend was lazy.

And your california story has no validity. What is your source? You tell what sounds like every other urban legend. “This guy and his son in this place were doing exactly what I need them to do to get my point across.”

And, lets say it DID happen. If pot were legal like it SHOULD be, there would be no wrongdoing growing it on your own property, and there would be no need for GUNS. THE REAL thing whose SOLE PURPOSE IS TO HURT PEOPLE.

Pot isn’t harmless. Lung damage if you smoke it, and long term effect may cause memory loss and other memory problems(no study has proved conclusively either way, but more evidence exists pointing towards yes).

In my experience, most drugs are bad. Coke, Heroin, LSD, E, all have pretty big impacts, and can kill people. Legalizing those will not change that.

Pot is different. its not lethal, and choosing to be a boxer will probably cause more problems mentally and long term than smoking it regularly.

However, like alcohol, drugs are used by unstable people to escape, forget, cope etc… This leads to behavior that is harmful to oneself, as well as others.

Anything in moderation, when used or done with some intelligence and knowledge isn’t bad. Its excessiveness or reliance thats the problem with drugs.

see, pot does hurt people, so there smarty pants.

For the record: I have never used an illegal substance. I do not condone the use of illegal substances, however I do not mind that others use. I do drink on occasion; about two or three times a month I will have some beer or wine (less often I will have liquor).

I have used weed, alcohol, mushrooms, MDMA, speed, benzos, opium tea, and many synthetic psychedelics in the last year alone. I smoke weed more than once a weak.

I am an aerospace engineering student at a top university in Europe. Me grades are good and study progress is ok. I finished 2.5 years of my study while smoking weed multiple times a weak. My friend is fulltime stoned and is doing college without any problems. Another friend also smokes weed daily and is doing good at an university. We use all kinds of drugs in different combinations and they have never causes use any problems(except for alcohol when we were young).

Drugs can do good and bad things for people. The good and bad are very subjective anyway, but everyone should have the choice to do with his body what he/she wants, as long as you don’t hurt others. I can use drugs without hurting others so I think I should be allowed to use drugs. This is my body! People who do hurt others should be punished for that, don’t blame the drug.

it would make no difference to me if my local pharmacy was selling the stuff - i just think that its not a good idea to be addicted to a drug. drug laws arent working - and the money that is made from the illegal trade is instead funding people like Hezbollah, the Taliban and North Korea.

we’re in a crazy situation, and legality is only the way forward.

It’s not enough to state, “legalization” will have more people getting high! Duh, what’s the problem with that? This is what needs to be addressed. The underlying subtext of the article is ‘why do WE do drugs’? Is it because we feel lied to, betrayed by government, special interests, and even our own parents?

My story:
1. Smoked pot, became dumb, barely graduated high school
2. Became drug addict for a few years (albeit a working, relatively clean, and nerdy one).
3. Decided to get smart again. Stopped doing hard drugs.
4. 4.0 GPA, Law school, personal-use pot grower - I smoke everyday.

but to refresh your memory (and future reference, of course), please refer to this before you ever post something on this blog again:

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#sequitur

I do not think the argument presented is a non sequitur. Feel free to show that I am wrong; that, in fact, the argument is non sequitur. I’d enjoy it!

“I don’t do drugs because they are illegal.”

That’s a pretty shrewd kid right there.

Another thing is that most high school kids are not smart enough to understand the physical risks of doing drugs, just like they are stupid enough to drive while they’re hammered. If you aren’t smart, you don’t understand moderation. Drug use can be a lot like depression — it’s okay to be sad once in a while, but if you are depressed, you end up dragging yourself down and it becomes a vicious cycle. Same way with drugs. Kids end up “perma-stoned” and waste any potential they had. Kids end up ODing because their inhibitions wear away to the point where they don’t have any kind of caution.

Recently about 5 or 6 kids who were part of the “stoner” social clique in my high school days (about 8 years ago) were just arrested for selling huge amounts of heroin. When you’re around drugs a lot, you lose your inhibitions about them. You think, hey, I could sell this! This is easy! Why am I not doing this? And then when you get shot, arrested, or OD, you have your answer.

You point is well taken, In American we are we beyond rational discourse, or scientific fact the nature of our struggle is deep and intractable and will probably be resolved only by civil war.

Having done drugs myself and quit for many years now, i do now believe that they are bad.
That society should strive to not depend on them is probably a good thing.
The religious right in this country, however, has gone too far; with the united states having more drug related convictions that all european countries for all criminal offenses combined (and yes europe’s population is higher!).

Drugs like crack and meth are inherently evil and should be fought against at all cost, but outlawing all drugs makes no sense. In the late 1800’s tea was outlawed in england which created a revolt and a huge illegal tea market, in the 1920’s the united states went against alcohol with similar success. A fair compromise must be found. Many people have deep underlying psychological reasons why they do drugs and laws won’t stop them; throwing them into jail and turning them into felons only deepens those issues.

The high cost of drugs is the major reason why addicts turn to crime. i believe if these were people had access to vast amount of it at a low price, they would it vanish with them or quickly realize their mistake and make neccessary changes.

I don’t really have an answer. I just hope that the united states government starts realizing one day that drug addict doesn’t mean criminal; and to stop giving so much power into the hands of ruthless criminals who profiteer from other people’s misery.

Here is the problem in a nutshell. Unlike alcohol, tobacco or even coffee, there is little money in legal marijuana. Why? Because marijuana for personal use would be easy to grow in your own home or backyard if it were legal.

By comparison, making your own alcohol, coffee or cigarettes would be much more difficult.

Even worse, marijuana is effective as a pain killer. That’s partly why 12 states have legalized some form of marijuana. That would have a negative impact on the pharmaceutical industry.

Just look at how the pharmaceutical industry is fighting to have a Chinese supplement that’s been in use for hundreds of years made illegal. I’m speaking of Red Yeast Rice, a natural cholesterol-lowering agent, because it threatens the sales of Lovastatin (Mevacor®, a drug produced by Merck & Co., Inc).

The record here? Family man w/MBA from top university, employed full-time at a Fortune 10 company, $1M+ net worth and no debts other than a small mortgage.

The only thing that makes marijuana devastating is the fact that it’s illegal. If it weren’t, people’s lives wouldn’t be destroyed. This is no different than alcohol prohibition except the fact that legal alcohol is more dangerous than illegal pot (just imagine how much safer it could be if it was regulated)

http://leap.cc

Society Article: 10 Things Every Parent, Teenager Or Teacher Should Know About Marijuana

U.S.A. Land of the Free?

I live in finland and here one cannot carry any kind of weapons for protection so if someone decides to go berserk while on coke then they can quite safely do that and a man cannot really defend himself without being put to pay his guts for it later in court. That is plain wrong.

So i see it as a initiative question. People who dont do drugs are always expecting a sudden attack from drug users. I got friends who did/do use drugs and they have been quite harmless, but i have also known people who have been users and quite f:d up. The kind of people you like to pull a gun on when they go nuts again. But you cant. Get the point what im trying to tell?

The other point is that the problems may not show up immediately, so it’s not because you see people taking drugs without seeing any problems or side effets that adults have lied about the potential risks.

Last advice, don’t play russian roulette with an uzi.

he probably does drugs himself, and this is his not too subtle way of saying: ya, street drugs are cool, everybody should smoke the weed, just like me….

stay away from the coolaid, JSWAN!!

but alas, dont listen to me…im just a 42 year adult liar, with four young boys.

and would like to recommend the ppl having DRUGS to QUIT it soon.

For a 42 year old you really need to grow up. Your (horribly punctuated) comment holds no value. If you spent some time reading, the author, JSwan, clearly states that he has “never used an illegal substance” and does “not condone the use of illegal substances”. Thanks for nothing.

I personally think the post is spot on.

Although there is a revival of sorts of this type of personal wine making and beer brewing developing again in America it is still not as popular as it once was, factory made alcohol is cheaper, and easier to obtain. I don’t anticipate the commercialization of cannabis in my life time. If and when it happens America will be a very different country than it is at present.